site-title & site-description container

eddieb (Member)
Posted 8 months ago | Permalink
why do site-title & site-description get downgraded to divs instead of h1/h2 in some pages?
```
<h1 id="site-title"><a href="http://lamp.local/" title="Site Title"><span>Site Title</span></a></h1>
<h2 id="site-description"><span>Desc</span></h2>
```
```
<div id="site-title"><a href="http://lamp.local/" title="Site Title"><span>Site Title</span></a></div>
<div id="site-description"><span>Desc</span></div>
```
in fact, what I would like to do is, on everypage, make site-description an H1 and site-title an H3. i'm also going to swap their order. obviously, this is being done for SEO purposes.

thanks
ToddMorris (Member)
Posted 8 months ago | Permalink

Obviously Justin will be able to give you the "in depth" answer, but my take ...

Hybrid IS optimized for SEO.

You only want ONE H1 tag on any give page.

Right now, on the Home page, the Site Title is the only H1 on the page.

When you go to to anything else: post, page, category, etc, the site title is in a <div>, and the Post/Page Title becomes the only H1.

I can't image why you would want it to be any different ???

If you change your site title to an H1 on single posts/pages, and don't also change the Post/Page title to something like H2 or H3, you will actually be hurting your SEO, as you'll now have multiple H1's per page.

Even if you do change the Post/Page titles to something other than H1, now you will have the exact same H1 throughout your entire blog (the site-title) ... no matter what the subject of the post.

... is that really what you want?

Just my three pennies,
Todd
Justin Tadlock (Administrator)
Posted 8 months ago | Permalink

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eddieb (Member)
Posted 8 months ago | Permalink

thats right todd, i wouldnt want that if my site was a blog. but since i am using wordpress as a CMS (with one of the pages as a blog), ideally site-title & site-description would be in Hx in everypage BUT the post permalink pages. sure, not h1 and h2, but still in Hx.

(currently, both the front page and the blog page have site-title as h1 and post title as h2)

as for the other point, i'd still rather have site-description a larger header than site title.
Justin Tadlock (Administrator)
Posted 8 months ago | Permalink

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eddieb (Member)
Posted 8 months ago | Permalink

> The title of the page should be in between tags. The site title and description should just be inside a when not on the front page.

i dont see how having site title and description inside h2/h3 would be harmful, but thats just me.

> The site title and description should just be inside a when not on the front page.

but they still show up inside H1 when on the blog page, which is not the front page (at least on hybrid w/ leviathan they do)
Justin Tadlock (Administrator)
Posted 8 months ago | Permalink

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eddieb (Member)
Posted 8 months ago | Permalink

Currently I have the front page and the blog page using the same title/H1. no good. That's a wordpress issue, much like all the other wordpress "issues" (read SEO deficiencies) hybrid corrects. Is this an issue something you intend to address in the future or do you have your reasons to stay away from it?

As far as making the title of the page an H1 and having no other Hx on the page, maybe there is something wrong with my setup. I am getting post_title, not page title, as H1, . In "Hybrid Options>Page Title" I fill in a descriptive title for the page, it gets copied over to "custom field" "Title", but on the page the only Header is an H1 for the post title (the name of the page in the nav menu)

If this is how it is intended to work? What is the use of making the word "About" into an H1, with no other Hx to support it?
Justin Tadlock (Administrator)
Posted 8 months ago | Permalink

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eddieb (Member)
Posted 8 months ago | Permalink

> I must also say that WordPress does not have SEO deficiencies. It does what it needs to do. It's probably one of the best platforms you can use out of the box when it comes to SEO. Hybrid corrects nothing in that area. It only extends it.

agreed. it is surely one of the best. it is up to you to refer to areas that can be improved as "correcting deficiencies" or "extending it".

I AM thinking about semantics. take for example http://themehybrid.com/about

there is only one header on this page. It reads "about". Semantically correct? for whom?

A blind user listening to his/her screen reader would hear a loud "about", and everything else would be at the same level. they would not know about what this "about" page is about until maybe they got half way thru the page - at which point hopefully they could infer, more or less, what the page is about.

Semantic for a search engine to "get" the which queries this page is a good match for? Surely, it would have a general idea of it based on keyword density, top to bottom keyword order, anchor links to this page etc etc etc, but would it be able to infer a single thing about this page based on its "semantically correct" headers? No.

What I am trying to say is: wouldnt "About the Theme Hybrid WordPress theme club" make up for a better h1? or at least, leave About as H1, but make "About the Theme Hybrid WordPress theme club" the H2?
Justin Tadlock (Administrator)
Posted 8 months ago | Permalink

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eddieb (Member)
Posted 8 months ago | Permalink

> What really matters is the content of your site

thats matt cutts' answer to every question. i love it when he does that.

in summary, what i would like to do is have wp_title() wrapped in H1, instead of the name of the page, when is_page(). how would i go about that?

thanks
Justin Tadlock (Administrator)
Posted 8 months ago | Permalink

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eddieb (Member)
Posted 8 months ago | Permalink

I am trying to improve the semantics of PAGES, the place you agreed could use improvement. I want to make "About the Theme Hybrid WordPress theme club" show up inside an H1, instead of "About", pointing to get_permalink().

> And, I can already tell you that the Hybrid theme filters wp_title

In this case I guess I need to use the_title()

> Nearly all SEO plugins filter wp_title.

this brings me to a question i wouldnt ask otherwise... should i use any SEO plugin with hybrid?? is there any marginal benefit to running All-in-one-SEO with hybrid?

Thanks justin
Justin Tadlock (Administrator)
Posted 8 months ago | Permalink

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eddieb (Member)
Posted 8 months ago | Permalink

there is some misunderstanding here. maybe i need to illustrate what i would like to do.

http://img36.picoodle.com/img/img36/2/7/1/crashnet/f_aboutm_4defde8.png

currently the contents of the first green circle show up inside the H1. It does a terrible job at describing what the page is about, and no, i am not going to change this for a better description of the page because i dont want a navigation menu item that has 5 words.

When is_page(), i would like to have the contents of field next to the 2nd green circle inside the h1.

thanks

PS: not that i care what we call it, but the above concern reflects an improvement. it is not about changing titles or creating better supporting subheaders. it is about swapping what is inside the H1 on PAGES, from something that usually does a poor job at describing what the page is about (1st green circle) for something that much more often does a better job (2nd green circle). My aim is to improve, from my point of view, the semantics of the pages generated by hybrid
Justin Tadlock (Administrator)
Posted 8 months ago | Permalink

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eddieb (Member)
Posted 8 months ago | Permalink

> You could always change the words in the navigation menu. It just depends on what's preferrable.

rare are the occasions when an idea can be represented by one word, and using 5 words for each item in a navigation menu is poor usability. keep in mind that i realize nothing of what I just said is news to you.

> What you're asking is fairly simple though. You'd like to replace the title of the page with a custom field.

thanks. my website is more semantic now than it was before this change.

> To even view this as having anything to do with Hybrid is incorrect.

i know you are busy Justin. I am extremely appreciate of your work and how much effort you put into helping your community. Consider this member of your community pleased. We can be done here.

But, if you feel like it, and I have a feeling that you will, please enlighten me as to how this has nothing to do with hybrid. what i just did is make hybrid behave like thematic, in this specific aspect (BTW something i only realized right now). the only difference, still, is that hybrid does not use an anchor in its h1. need an example? look at the page title and see how it matches the H1 in:
http://themeshaper.com/thematic/

This decision was made by Ian Stewart, much like you made the decision to do it differently in hybrid.
eddieb (Member)
Posted 8 months ago | Permalink

"is that hybrid does not use an anchor in its h1" should read "is that thematic does not use an anchor in its h1"
Justin Tadlock (Administrator)
Posted 8 months ago | Permalink

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eddieb (Member)
Posted 8 months ago | Permalink

i dont know where the miscommunication is justin, maybe you could explain it, so we stop going back and forth.

i dont know about the example you got, but on http://themeshaper.com/thematic/

situation A: thematic wraps <title>, and then again an H1, around the same string, "Thematic, A WordPress Theme Framework"

situation B: if this same WP instance was being skinned by hybrid, it would wrap <title> around "Thematic, A WordPress Theme Framework" BUT it would wrap ONLY the word "Thematic" in an H1, which is the nav menu item name for this page.

please explain how you see the different as the same.

also, would you disagree that situation A is semantically more correct than situation B?
Justin Tadlock (Administrator)
Posted 8 months ago | Permalink

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Justin Tadlock (Administrator)
Posted 8 months ago | Permalink

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eddieb (Member)
Posted 8 months ago | Permalink

> If this were done with the Hybrid theme it would read "Thematic, A WordPress Theme Framework" as well. It would be used in both the <title> and <h1> elements.

so howcome, without the fix i implemented today, i get the contents of the first green circle (one word, same word used in the nav menu) inside an H1, and i get a descriptive title (5 or 6 words), the contents of the second green circle, inside <title> ?
Justin Tadlock (Administrator)
Posted 8 months ago | Permalink

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Justin Tadlock (Administrator)
Posted 8 months ago | Permalink

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eddieb (Member)
Posted 8 months ago | Permalink

* What you write as the title in the page editor is used on the front of the site.
* This value is used within both the <title> and <h1> elements.

thats not what i get, hence this discussion. what i get in h1, whether or not i have a custom title in Hybrid Settings (which gets copied over to the custom field named "title") is the contents of the first green circle. it behaves the same way as http://themehybrid.com/about before you changed it.

the only way to get and to match is to leave custom title in Hybrid Settings blank. but then i get the very unsemantic H1, and thats the whole point of this discussion.

what you said above happens on my site ONLY if i turn on
Justin Tadlock (Administrator)
Posted 8 months ago | Permalink

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eddieb (Member)
Posted 8 months ago | Permalink

I see where the problem lies. What you call page title (first green circle) to me is the page name, as in the NAME of the page within WP and on the navigation menu. if i change it to something more descriptive, for example "blah blah blah blah", i get "blah blah blah blah" in <title>, in H1 AND in the navigation menu, and that is undesirable. so i cant do that.

tell me something: to change the title and H1 of http://themehybrid.com/about to "About the Theme Hybrid WordPress theme club", you changed the contents of the first green circle, right? So howcome the NAVIGATION (the 2nd tab from the left) shows only "about", not "About the Theme Hybrid WordPress theme club" ?
Justin Tadlock (Administrator)
Posted 8 months ago | Permalink

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