Making money from Theme Hybrid

Justin Tadlock (Administrator)
Posted 9 months ago | Permalink

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Patrick Daly (Member)
Posted 9 months ago | Permalink
I can't say I've got the best idea, but I do have some options.

Theme Club
Basically a child theme developer can setup his/her own theme club that users pay a fee to participate (sound familiar)?

However, I don't think it's fair to split the community between two different theme clubs. For instance, customers pay you X per year and they pay me another X for my club.
- The support is reduced in quality because it's spread out
- Many child theme support related questions would be best addressed here or through your tutorials; vice versa
- There's seemingly a duplicitous cost (getting support for the same framework in two places)
- Hypothetically, the child theme's support could be so much more superior that your customers start to leave (doubt it!)
Charge Per Theme
Pay X dollars and get the download link for a child theme. This is the simplest method.

However, the GPL undercuts the sustainability of this model. Anyone could simply buy the child theme and then release it for free (even Theme Hybrid could that!).

Even if the GPL didn't present a barrier, I think the cost would. A child theme requires less work to develop, so should the cost reflect that? If so, how low do you go? If the price is too low then can you make enough money? Or, do "cheaply" prices themes give a "cheap" impression?

So, neither of those ideas sound great to me, but it's all I can think of.
tewonawonga (Member)
Posted 9 months ago | Permalink

I design Hybrid-based custom child themes for clients, who then in turn have become Theme Club members because they like Hybrid so much and/or want to learn more on their own. I like this because I make money and Justin makes money.

Developers and designers could create page templates for a fee, child themes for a fee, charge for Hybrid-specific tech support---heck, if there's a cottage industry of techies that make money by calling themselves Thesis experts, there should definitely be the same for Hybrid---I've worked with both and it's definitely the superior framework.

And I think Justin (and perhaps others) could do really well teaching courses that walk independent types and aspiring developers through Hybrid---if pro bloggers can charge $150-300 per student for a very basic blogging class, pro developers can charge at least that much to teach basic design.
Jan Egbert (Member)
Posted 9 months ago | Permalink

What about an extra level of membership. One that allows people to download so called premium themes. The only problem is that if you compare 'premium themes' to Theme Hybrid and all of it's child themes, Theme Hybrid is on a whole different level. It's really a pearl in the vast sea of WordPress themes.

Idea #1 Child theme developers get a different user_role. Their replies in this forum will only be visible for premium members. In a way they will be small Justin Tadlocks offering support for their own child themes.

Idea #2 Another thing that arises in my mind: selling themes for 4 or 5 dollars.

Idea #3 PSD to Theme Hybrid. Ask a certain amount of money for turning a design into a child theme.

I'll be thinking about this some more this week...
steupz (Member)
Posted 9 months ago | Permalink

I think a great way is selling links. That proprietary link at the bottom of the Options theme, for example, has to be worth a fair bit.

I'm sure someone would be willing to pay to have their link there.
Justin Tadlock (Administrator)
Posted 9 months ago | Permalink

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Justin Tadlock (Administrator)
Posted 9 months ago | Permalink

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Patrick Daly (Member)
Posted 9 months ago | Permalink

I think this is on the right track. A centralized place of support is best for everyone.

Selling child themes doesn't seem as if it would work though. As long as they're GPL (and of course they are) then it can just be redistributed for free by anyone.

So I think the Hybrid-dependent projects should be tied into the Club fee. First, anyone can download Hybrid and all the child themes and plugins they want for free. Then, for general Hybrid support they pay the $25 a year. Up till now everything is the same.

Then if a user wants access to a child theme's support forum, tutorials, PSDs, etc they can add an additional $5 (or so) to their annual fee. 100% of that $5 goes to the child theme's author. It might then be fair to offer a percentage of the $25 to the theme author as well.

So a theme author could make this much a year per user: $5 + ($25 * 25%) = $11.25

If that particular theme has 500 users in 1 year the theme author profits $5,625 .

That's ONE scenario. I don't particularly like it because earning $5k per year while providing support on a website other than your own is kinda discouraging. Also, there would be a fine line between what constitutes Hybrid support and child theme support. Likely, the general Hybrid forums would be filled with child theme questions simply because they didn't want to pay $5 so moderating those would become quite difficult.

My next idea is coming...
Patrick Daly (Member)
Posted 9 months ago | Permalink

Hybrid could be a PSD to WP theme service. All this site needs is a file uploader and questionnaire.

When the user is filling out basic info about how their theme should be built they can also select the developer they'd like to work on it (Justin would hand pick these people) or choose to randomly select someone. The details of this can be worked out later.

Then the PSD is sent to the respective developer and turned around within a certain number of days.

The user can also choose whether they want to GPL their theme or not. If they choose to GPL the theme then they get it at reduced cost and it's added to the Hybrid themes page (assuming it's good enough). The developer keeps 100% of the earnings while Hybrid earns another user and instantly adds to its offerings.

Now, I could setup the exact same thing and keep all the money, but I don't have the following Hybrid does so I doubt I'd be as successful without putting a lot of money into advertising. Also, I foresee this being really beneficial to Hybrid as it provides more resources for users, possibly gets customers it wouldn't have otherwise, and sets Hybrid (and its community) apart from any other framework.

Update: Also the customer would become a Hybrid Club member, so their support would already be covered and they become a recurring source of revenue.
Justin Tadlock (Administrator)
Posted 9 months ago | Permalink

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8207h32 (Member)
Posted 9 months ago | Permalink

I like Jan Egbert idea about PSD to Child Theme too.
It will produce more child theme.
Jan Egbert (Member)
Posted 9 months ago | Permalink

The guys at Gravity Forms offer forum support and priority support. Haven't used the priority support option yet, but I presume that there is people out there willing to pay for this. I just don't see how child theme developers would benefit from this. Also I like browsing this forum in my search for answers. Priority support problems + answers would never be visible...

Helping people migrate to Theme Hybrid is another idea.
Patrick Daly (Member)
Posted 9 months ago | Permalink

Oh sorry Jan, I hadn't seen that you already proposed the PSD to Hybrid theme idea.

To add a bit more skin to idea though...

Obviously the mention of PSD to Hybrid requires that there already be a PSD. Most PSD site creation services leave it there, expecting their customers to come with design-in-hand. Since that probably eliminates tons of possible business there could be a design option as well.

There could be a flat fee for creating a design for someone that includes a home page and interior design with 2 revisions (or something like that). Then they're passed onto the development phase. All in all this requires at least one person to design and then develop, but up to two people could be involved in that process.

Justin, how specific do we want to get here in this forum? Assuming this is a viable option that you'd like to proceed with should we plain all the details here? Do you want to tackle that alone? Do you have an idea of when you'd want to launch something like this?

I think this is a great idea, but it adds a lot of weight to Justin's shoulders as he suddenly becomes somewhat of an employer which adds to the complexity of the business model, accounting, time involved, etc. However, if we really believe (or Justin really believes) that this could really benefit Hybrid & WordPress then I think the risk is worth it. Of course, I'd love to offer as much help as I can.
steupz (Member)
Posted 9 months ago | Permalink

Not many people can afford 2000 for a theme.
I can probably go 50-70 for a really good theme
Justin Tadlock (Administrator)
Posted 9 months ago | Permalink

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Ed Bejarana (Member)
Posted 9 months ago | Permalink

Being a new member of the community, a novice theme developer, and service provider I offer a new perspective for consideration.

As service providers (who happen to build websites for our clients), we sell time to our clients. We develop our niche market, make our presentations and do our level best to deliver excellent service. WordPress--as a development platform--make web development affordable for the smallest of budget because we, as developers, don't have to pay for the basic platform.

Justin, you've added incredible value to the free WordPress publishing platform, but that value is only realized by the web development community (i.e. us). Take this a step further, Justin, you've created a platform where a novice web developer (like myself) can create effective websites for our clients at a price small and start-up business can afford.

Just like I sell my time to my clients, Justin, you sell your time to us. Opening this forum to end users would be problematic (at best) because for every web design approach there are a hundred different way to accomplish the task. Since the end user wasn't the creator of the design approach, most of the support time would be defending a design approach you (and your team) had no input in creating.

My suggestion is as follows:

Justin, you raise your annual membership fee to the developer community to a level where you can make a living and continue to provide amazing support to us. We, in turn, will continue to use the Hybrid Theme Framework to create effective websites for the business market, eventually making Hybrid the most used WordPress Framework.

If we start trying to charge per theme, then I believe we are missing the point Matt (and Open Source) supports so passionately. It is not about the creative, it is about the service.

As Hybrid theme developers, we should all feel comfortable freely sharing our theme designs (with a few exceptions) because the foundation we used to create the theme was FREE. Notice my use of the word should...each developer must make their own decision to freely share or not--just the same as you have Justin. I my case, I long for the day when someone asks if they can re-use one of my themes... The answer will absolutely be yes and I will be flattered when that person improves what I did.

Sorry for the length, but I am passionate about Open Source and only hope my thoughts help the discussion progress.

Thank you Justin (and everyone else) who is helping make the WordPress community bigger and better.
Justin Tadlock (Administrator)
Posted 9 months ago | Permalink

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frosty (Member)
Posted 8 months ago | Permalink

You won't find many good theme designers that'll design a custom theme for $50 - $70. $2,000 is honestly at the low end of the scale, unless we're talking an extremely simple blog theme that could be put together in under 3 hours.

Problem is these days, people really think they can get a full custom site for less than $100. I get those responses day after day.
Kyle D (Member)
Posted 8 months ago | Permalink

I just thought of a quasi-way people could "make money" through Hybrid. Perhaps you could allow members to author tutorials, and you could pay them in credit towards membership renewals?

This would help you out by providing tutorials for your members, and help out the authors by saving them a bit of money on future renewals.

You'd have to determine whether a tutorial was up to par for the site, of course, and perhaps some tutorials would be worth more than others. In the back of your head you probably have a whole gambit of tutorial ideas you'd like to get to if you had the time. With this you could post the list and have potential tutorial authors request to write the specific tutorial. Or they could approach you with their own ideas.
thinkjayant (Member)
Posted 8 months ago | Permalink

I for long wanted to setup a site where I can give away free and paid/premium themes based on Hybrid Framework. I was also baffled with the idea of how to make it into a decent model. My most problematic part was to maintain support for the Theme Framework. I can mange support for the nitty gritty of the Child Theme.

Here is a model i would like to propose. We child theme designer can show, pitch and sell the child theme on our site. However the support forum would be linked to this site. With as rightly put forward, Child theme specificity would be managed by Child Theme Developer. Questions belonging to Hybrid can be taken up by Justin himself, although child theme designers can pitch in, as i foresee increase in the number of questions asked.

Now the revenue model, Child theme authors can sell Free themes and premium ones. Free ones wont get a subscription to Themehybrid. They have to buy it separately. Each premium theme would be bundled with a one year Themehybrid subscription.

Thsi model can be expanded to include PSD to Theme conversation also. Also some designers who are good with photoshop can manage PSD creation as a service. But it should not be linked with Themehybrid as it will get lot more confusing.

Your thoughts on the same please. Regards TJ.
ryanhellyer (Member)
Posted 8 months ago | Permalink

I've been contemplating creating a free theme which worked straight out of the box, but I would also offer a paid "Hybrid Framework" version (once it becomes available) which would feature all the whizz bang features of the Hybrid Framework incorporated into it.

My question to Justin is: Would this bother you at all? I'd effectively be selling something which you are intending to release for free. I just want to check before I barrel ahead and start stepping on your toes in the process.

FYI, this would not be a typical theme and (if I actually follow through on the idea) it will have some rather odd-ball functionality that would not allow it work as a child theme.
grockle (Member)
Posted 8 months ago | Permalink

The one problem I can foresee is Justin being left having to support miscreant child theme developers who make a few bucks and then go missing in action. As Hybrid is very much his baby, Joe Public will see him as ultimately responsible for their woes.
ryanhellyer (Member)
Posted 8 months ago | Permalink

In my case that wouldn't matter as I'm not intending to make a child theme. At this stage my (very fuzzy partially thought out) plan is to label it somehow with "Hybrid Framework" in the title, but that's purely as a way to give credit back to Justin. I could just as easily remove all references to Hybrid from everything other than the core files. So the users of the software wouldn't even necessarily need to know that it's Hybrid running under the hood.
Justin Tadlock (Administrator)
Posted 8 months ago | Permalink

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ryanhellyer (Member)
Posted 8 months ago | Permalink

Cool :) I'm really looking forward to seeing it! And yep, my project will definitely be GPL.

I was already intending to use my own hook names, although purely so that the non-Hybrid version doesn't confuse users when it references Hybrid throughout it.

I'm sure you've got this covered already, but there's a couple of places like the edit posts page and the settings page which have direct references to Hybrid in them. It would also be handy if there's a way to totally unhook the settings page, as many theme creators will have their own custom settings pages.
Justin Tadlock (Administrator)
Posted 8 months ago | Permalink

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Jan Egbert (Member)
Posted 8 months ago | Permalink

A hybrid is the combination of two or more different things, aimed at achieving a particular objective or goal. (Wikipedia). Why not start a company? Offering services all over the world.
ryanhellyer (Member)
Posted 8 months ago | Permalink

@Jan - what sort of company do you have in mind?
Joel (Member)
Posted 8 months ago | Permalink

Noticed some discussion of "child themes" and the nature of GPL. It seems like there may be some confusion around this, as the SFLC has already issued an opinion stating that CSS and images which work with WordPress themes do not inherit the GPL. This is certainly a critical element when considering a viable business model around WP.

Ma.tt cleared this up here: http://wordpress.org/development/2009/07/themes-are-gpl-too/

One sentence summary: PHP in WordPress themes must be GPL, artwork and CSS may be but are not required.

As for more money making ideas, any service which relies upon up-to-date/interactive information can be leveraged using Hybrid to display that data and make it malleable. The fee you charge your client/customer is for the data, obviously not for the display mechanism. Hybrid simply adds value to an already valuable service.
Justin Tadlock (Administrator)
Posted 8 months ago | Permalink

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