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In our discussion about making money from Theme Hybrid, one great idea was to offer a PSD to child theme service.
I wanted to open a topic that deals specifically with this idea. So, the floor is completely open.
Nothing has to be set in stone. We just need to go ahead and get the ideas rolling in, so we can make this happen.
First shot at the submission process:
Submission Page Fields
After Submission
The data and file(s) are sent to Justin and the designer chosen (if any). Justin could follow up to make sure the designer received the information and make sure they're available. If a designer wasn't chosen then Justin could pick one and check their availability.
Time frame
Since this is a distributed service the time-frame other PSD>WP services offer couldn't be quite as tight. Some turnaround designs in 3 days or a week. This won't be people's primary gig so it can't be expected to work quite as fast, so maybe a two-week estimation of deliver. Thoughts?
Pricing
There will always be people out there that do PSD conversion for minimum wage -- which is why you can get a theme cut out for $300. I don't know about everyone else, but some clients spend $300 of my time in correspondence. Its rarely as simple as, "here's my design, turn it into HTML." Instead it comes with questions about integrating plugins, adding a calendar, etc. At this point we're beyond the scope of what a PSD conversion service can offer.
Maybe it just needs to be very apparent from the get-go that customers will only receive a child theme without any extra goodies -- for that they can consult with the designer or someone else after the product is delivered.
So back to the price. I think $300 is low -- especially if Justin is hand picking developers that should be producing semantic, compatible, accessible, standards-based code.
I think $1,000 might be a good starting place. I offer my clients a GPL discount. You can read more detail on my site, but essentially if they choose to GPL their theme I discount 25%. This is an option I reserve the right to take away if their design isn't that great, its too specific to their brand, or its too complicated based on the requirements of the client, thus making it too hard for users to understand.
I think $1000 is way too much...
One of the main things that make me say that is that you would want to keep above the bad work but not ostracize yourself out of the market...
@ Patrick as a side note and please do not take this as an insult or as a flaming war but some of your sites do not validate correctly
@fb No offense taken. I release my sites as standard-compliant, but after use they begin to "crack" because of things clients add or quick fixes. Beyond that, compliance to standards should be a goal, but because a site validates properly doesn't mean it works across browsers or is the most accessible it can be. Plus there are some invalid uses of XHTML and CSS that are considered acceptable.
On price though. $1,000 may be too expensive, though I don't think its too far reaching. Many designers/developers charge between $1,500-$4,000 for a custom site. So in our case we'd just deduct the design from that cost which is roughly half and a bit more for the consulting involved. So low end is ~$500 and high end is ~$1,500. My opinion is that $1,500 is way too much and $500 is just about too low. Though it could be just right.
Your point about keeping it within the market is well taken. When it comes down to it there's probably more people willing to go with any ol' PSD>WP service if its cheaper.
Although, the benefits of Hybrid are a bit different than the rest of the conversion services:
So, there's just a bit more food for thought.
I do a fair bit of PSD to CSS work, and can't imagine doing it for less than $1,000 - especially when integrating it into Hybrid/WP - so $1000 doesn't seem too high to me. I know there are cheaper services out there - but I've never looked at the resulting code they generate.
Some sites might be so simple (or so similar to the base Hybrid theme) that $1000 might be high, but for others it might not be enough.
How this will work
I'd like to have a specific page with a form for adding new projects. Users will fill out the form and upload the files needed. This information will then be sent to the designers selected.
Designers
There should be a list of checkboxes with each designer available for work as well as a "Send to all designers" checkbox.
Example:
Upload files
I'm thinking the best way to do this would be to have a simple upload for a .zip or .tar file. Something like:
- Please upload a .zip or .tar file of your projects PSD(s). [Upload]
- Read more about how to create a zip file →
Budget price ranges
As for pricing, I'd like to have an optional "Budget" drop-down select with a specific set of price ranges.
Because much of the work is done (templating with Hybrid, designed with PSD), I can imagine some themes being cheaper than others. For example, an extremely basic blog theme could actually be coded in one day.
So, we need some budget ranges:
These are just example prices, so let's put this on the agenda.
Option to GPL/release theme to public
I like this option, but it definitely needs to be left up to the designer if it's selected.
More form elements
There's still some more form elements we'll need. Project information and such.
Something that comes up for me on occasion is not having font files, so they'd need to be included in the zip if they're not standard. I imagine you'll have a FAQ for this, but just something that ought to go in there.
Budget ranges look good to me. You could always have something to manually enter a budget if it doesn't fall into those ranges.
It might be useful for a designer to add/remove themselves from the list of designers. For example, if I'm busy with other client work for the next couple of months, there's no point in me being on the list. Might end up getting too complicated, but if it's something you can easily implement, it could be handy.
As for form elements, it might just be easier to have a big textarea for these. Projects tend to vary so much that having all the necessary elements would be tough. Once this has been around for a while, you'll probably find a few elements do require having their own fields (because people forget to mention them, or just to narrow the answers)
Initial mockup:
http://justintadlock.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/psd-to-child-theme-1.png
Let's build off this.
I'll can also write a post on the blog here asking people what sort of prices are good. Of course, it might not be helpful if everyone's giving a low price range.
Sidebar Banner/Image
I'd like to add an image advertising this service across the site in the sidebar area. If anyone wants to tackle this, it'd be great.
The catchier and better-looking it is, the better it is for you all.
Add remove yourself from the designer list
A quick email to me should work. It'd take me just a minute to add/remove you. At least until later. Maybe I'll have time to build something like that.
As for form elements, it might just be easier to have a big textarea for these. Projects tend to vary so much that having all the necessary elements would be tough. Once this has been around for a while, you'll probably find a few elements do require having their own fields (because people forget to mention them, or just to narrow the answers)
True.
I'd like to get as many elements down as necessary first. So, anything that any of you see that's common among various projects, post it here.
Here's an ad option: http://developdaly.com/files/2010/02/psd-wp.jpg
Payments
How are you thinking about handling payment? Will that be solely decided by the designer? Will there be an payment option on the site? What percentage will the designer keep?
And related, will a customer's payment for the theme automatically get them a Hybrid account somehow?
Here's an ad option: http://developdaly.com/files/2010/02/psd-wp.jpg
Awesome. That's just the type of thing I was looking for.
RE: Payments
I want this to be completely separate from Theme Hybrid. Payments should be handled between the designer and the client.
Think of Theme Hybrid as just a place where a person can come and find someone to develop their theme. If that person chooses to also get a membership, all the better.
For now, I say let's keep it fairly basic.
I have some questions about this...
Just adding my $0.02, I think Justin has nailed the reality of pricing---that there's no one single price point for every project. Asking the client their desired budget is a great idea. It's then up to the designer to decide what they're willing to accept and reject (but I'm in the same camp as Patrick, for what it's worth---we shouldn't underprice what we do).
Question: If we're marketing to clients without much technical knowledge, should we use the PSD acronym? Folks might not understand what that means. Patrick, do you have any objections to me taking another stab at the ad?
And I still think we need to discuss how we can compensate Justin, at bare minimum for allowing us to advertise our services on Theme Hybrid.
Of course, maybe I'm not worthy of participating in this conversation in the first place... just email me if I'm not and I'll back off. ;-)
@tewonawonga Of course you can take another shot! That was my first and only attempt so if you've got any other ideas we could benefit from them.
I think psd is the proper term to use. The service is for "design to hybrid" services - so it is quite likely that the design will be in psd format (and if it isn't I am sure the designer knows what a psd is).
The FAQ could always explain what a psd is.
Who will decide which designers are good enough and on what grounds?
I'll be the judge of that. Right now, only all of you in this topic (and a few others) will be able to participate. Once things get off the ground, I'll start laying out some stricter guidelines.
Would it be possible to set an availability status somewhere in the ThemeHybrid profile? (this status could be checked by the form, I've done things like this with Gravity Forms fairly easy)
I've got an idea about how to do that from your profile screen.
Would selected designers get a different role in this community?
I've got a few ideas about this too, but I don't think they belong in this particular topic. It's something I'll open up for discussion soon though.
But, feel free to discuss this.
Would it be possible for designers to have their portfolio on this website?
I'd really love to do this. But, this is going to take some time for me to put together, so we won't be able to launch the service with this. You'll have to have some sort of portfolio on your own site.
I did start something like this on the showcase blog, but I want to wait until WP 3.0 because I've got some major structural changes I want to make with the site.
http://themehybrid.com/showcase/designers
Question: If we're marketing to clients without much technical knowledge, should we use the PSD acronym? Folks might not understand what that means.
If they don't know what a PSD is, then they won't be able to use the service. They wouldn't be able to upload the file(s). This should be pushed toward designers with little development skills or little time for development.
I'm pretty sure "PSD to * (theme, template, etc.)" is the industry standard for this type of service. Or, "You Design, We Code."
Suits me fine---I'm just asking questions for the sake of planning a marketing strategy. I'm hearing that folks think we should focus on providing services (primarily) to graphic designers or design savvy folks. Awesome.
That will help considerably from a marketing standpoint, because it will we'll be able to focus where we promote the service---design blogs, listservs, alt groups, etc.
Has anyone else done some research into what the going rate seems to be for this sort of thing? Although I agree with Patrick D's "fair-trade" rate, it looks like fb's rate suggestion is more common---PSDtoWP.com is charging $400 and Google abounds with ads for services that drop below $200.
I think that's freaking ridiculous.
But that doesn't mean we can't charge a more realistic rate. It just means that the marketing strategy is going to need to clearly explain why choosing the Hybrid framework and our service is more valuable. A few answers immediately pop into my head: the Theme Hybrid community as a resource, additional tech support that individual developers may provide, the bulletproof nature of the framework, etc.
Alright, I'm rambling---trying to make up for my less-than-great PHP skills by regurgitating some of my grad school marketing knowledge. ;-)
@Patrick: I'll see if I can make use of Justin's catchy "You Design, We Code" slogan.
Here's a rough mockup ad I put together in GIMP---it still needs some cleaning up. You'll have to tell me what you think about the moniker "Team Hybrid." ;-)
http://www.rondoylewrites.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/teamhybrid_ad_258x258.png
@Ron Nice looking ad.
I've been working with a programmer to develop a plugin for me. One thing he did that I haven't seen mentioned here is to have a "generic" spec. sheet to have the client fill in.
This could be downloaded and filled in from the webpage or would most likely be something directly between designer and chosen client though, and some of you probably have something already.
I made the mistake of not being perfectly clear what I wanted and some of the features were totally wrong and ended up costing me dearly, because I wasn't perfectly clear on every detail.
I think as far as communication goes, once a "converter/developer" is picked, the onus should be on her and the client to hash out any extra details.
When I've done this in the past, even with an accompanying styleguide, I find there are some questions that need asking that can be addressed via email or skype or instant messenger.
Suits me fine---I'm just asking questions for the sake of planning a marketing strategy. I'm hearing that folks think we should focus on providing services (primarily) to graphic designers or design savvy folks. Awesome.
Once we get this launched, it should be fairly easy to launch a Child Theme Design and Development Service (I'll open another topic for that eventually). For now, the marketing should be geared toward design-savvy folks for sure.
But that doesn't mean we can't charge a more realistic rate. It just means that the marketing strategy is going to need to clearly explain why choosing the Hybrid framework and our service is more valuable. A few answers immediately pop into my head: the Theme Hybrid community as a resource, additional tech support that individual developers may provide, the bulletproof nature of the framework, etc.
Yes, we definitely need to start working on some copy for this. I'll try to get some done as soon as I can, but if anyone wants to get the ball rolling, feel free to.
Here's a rough mockup ad I put together in GIMP---it still needs some cleaning up. You'll have to tell me what you think about the moniker "Team Hybrid." ;-)
I think this one definitely sends the right message. I'm not sure about "Team Hybrid" though. It sounds catchy, but I don't think it's the right wording. Maybe: "PSD to WordPress theme development by a Hybrid Pro." I just wouldn't want to confuse anyone about who they'll be working with.
I've been working with a programmer to develop a plugin for me. One thing he did that I haven't seen mentioned here is to have a "generic" spec. sheet to have the client fill in.
This could be downloaded and filled in from the webpage or would most likely be something directly between designer and chosen client though, and some of you probably have something already.
I think this is designer/client material for now. But, I think we should revisit this idea once we launch the new service.
Patrick is doing a trial run at $300, so be sure to re-tweet this link:
http://developdaly.com/general/trial-five-300-psd-child-themes
It'll probably offer us all some useful information once he's through.
I love this idea. But what about a Wireframe to WordPress idea? I know this is taking the whole thing one step back (which would increase costs), but not all people are proficient in Photoshop or Gimp.
I also like both Patricks and Ron ad, and actually like the play with words and rhymes in Rons ad with ThemeHybrid and TeamHybrid. There's no doubt that the designers that get Justins OK will be conceived as part of the Hybrid team, and therefore I like the phrase.
I love this idea. But what about a Wireframe to WordPress idea? I know this is taking the whole thing one step back (which would increase costs), but not all people are proficient in Photoshop or Gimp.
This service would be geared toward designers. After this is launched, I'd like to do a just a basic "We Design and Develop Your Child Theme Service." In that instance, one would be able to upload something like a wireframe. We'll get to that as soon as this project launches.
Great Idea -
@Prices - i think the flexibility is neseccesary
@GPL - shouldnt this be an option in the order form too ? at least to force the designers to think about releasing the child theme under this license ...
keep up your good work !!!
PSD isn't for me but I'd remark that the world is global. What may be an uncommercially low rate for a developer based in New York, might be acceptable for a developer based in the Mid West and very attractive for one based on Mexico or Ireland ... let alone cheaper locations like Russia or India. Some clients may be willing to pay more for a "local" developeer so I'd suggest making the developers' locations prominent in thier profiles. I'd also suggest that developers indicate the sectors they prefer working in personal / societies / charity /corporates or something similar. Corporates may be willing to pay more but are likely to be more demanding and want quick turnarounds, but a charity seeking help may be much less flexible, but equally have very limited budgets.
The child theme is a good idea for an extension. (In 2- 3 months, I'll probably release a child theme under GPL and make it easily available. The child theme I am working on is too complex for most people so I'm intending to create a "lite" version which is available for general download.)
Kate
This sounds great, how do I get in?
Egyptological has a good point there. For example, I live in Brazil (though I'm half British/Belgian), and I'm charging a price that allows me to earn a decent living, but I can't justify charging 1000$ for a PSD conversion. I've studied all the major PSD to WordPress offerings out there and it seems to hover around 500$. That seems fair to me.
One of the big selling points of premium themes is a nice options page, such as the Woothemes of Elegantthemes options panels.
Also, you'll probably get lots of requests for just installation and maybe change some colors and add a logo. So maybe you need to set a fixed base price.
Most PSD to WordPress charge a flat fee + an additional fee per different page layout. Also, the quicker they need it, the more the price increases.
You can use Wufoo forms for the design brief.
Check out this one from Brian Hoff
http://bhoff.wufoo.com/forms/graphic-design-worksheet/
Did this project get anywhere?
Hi,
I have now my first project to convert a PSD file to a child theme for Hybrid. I have some experience of converting a previous web theme to Hybrid child. I used Photoshop to some extent and I have some knowledge on PHP, Wordpress, etc
I never did Photoshop slicing before so I am a bit lost where or how to start.
I thought I would like to hire a coach the guide me during this first project. I do not have a big budget but I would do most of the work and I would pay for some help.
Is anyone interested to help me?
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